Contributory Value with Mark “Skap” Skapinetz

The “Cobra Effect”, Incorporation By Reference & The Appraisal Profession

September 15, 2022 Mark Skapinetz Season 1 Episode 2
Contributory Value with Mark “Skap” Skapinetz
The “Cobra Effect”, Incorporation By Reference & The Appraisal Profession
Show Notes Transcript

In this episode, we caught up with appraiser and author Jeremy Bagott. 

We expected to encounter a hard-edged industry reformer who would take us deep into some weed bed we didn’t want to be in. But by the end of the interview, we had the feeling that Bagott, to the extent anyone can truly know these things, was a regular guy. (This is true. I am a “regular guy.”)

His 2020 book, “Dispatches from the Cosmic Cobra Breeding Farm,” sounded a clarion call – a throwdown if you will. He exhorts appraisers to be like activist shareholders who own stock in a company that is found to be squandering precious capital on golden handshakes and corporate perks. 

He paints the Appraisal Foundation and its tiny government patron, the Appraisal Subcommittee, as a decades-old meal ticket for a couple dozen bon-vivants who have created a lucrative fiefdom. He asks appraisers to see the Appraisal Foundation, a tiny 501(c)(3) nonprofit, as a Disney-like rights-management operation that has attached itself, along with its growing number of copyrighted products, to an entire profession. The organism then plows back some of its time and money into gaining further influence and further cementing its standing. 

Bagott was getting back to work reviewing reports for a pipeline easement project when we caught up with him at his office in Ventura, California, a short drive from where he grew up in the San Fernando Valley, which he describes as “Levittown West.” As a kid, he daydreamed about being a game warden in Wyoming or piloting the Goodyear Blimp. As a teen, he had what he described as “problems adjusting,” got into trouble with the police and ended up joining the Marines.

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mark_skapinetz: All right, everyone. So, as I stated earlier on, I have this very special guest that I decided to bring on today. Uh, this is somebody that I had spoken with a while back, actually on the phone and we talked about some, some cool little issues, uh, out there. And to my he just took everything out there to a whole new level people.

Uh, I know you've seen his writings. I know you've seen, uh, the things posted in the blogs, uh, all around the internet, all around the appraisal sites. He's actually very well known right now for his book that he wrote called dispatches from the cosmic Cobra breeding farm, which I'm sorry, just a cool, cool name. very excited to bring this person on it is Mr. Jeremy Bagit, who is also an appraiser and he's a well known author now. So Jeremy, how are you

Track 1: Hey, I'm doing good. Um, scap, thanks for having me on your podcast.

mark_skapinetz: Yeah, I, I, you know, I was [00:01:00] going through all my on who I wanted to bring on different episodes. So last week I had Blaine Faye on who's a good friend of mine, helped me redevelop my business and, and redo things. And, you know, I got to thinking, you know, who else can I bring on to follow this up with?

Who can I bring on? That would be, know, make my next show really cool and exciting. And man, I'm going through my list and there was your name. And I said, oh, I gotta get Jeremy on because you know, we all know you, you you've written some really, in depth articles out there that get posted to the appraiser's blogs and get shared all around.

I get 'em in my emails. Um, and a lot of them, you know, some people would say, maybe they're controversial. Some people say, maybe that's just his opinion. I look at it this way. I look at it, man, you've done your research and you've really. Dug deep into certain aspects of the appraisal profession, but have done it in a different way. Um, especially with this book, you know, with this book, I read it. I didn't understand a lot of it at first. So I had to go back around and go read it again. [00:02:00] Uh, but man, just for everybody out there that that has not read your book has not, you know, even seen it yet. us a little description in your real words.

Um, you know what your book from the cosmic Cobra breeding farms about a little

Track 1: Well, it's, uh, it kind of a. Uh, through, uh, a, uh, a weird, uh, terrain, uh, that includes, uh, uh, bureaucratic, uh, hubris and, uh, uh, abuses and waste and self dealing and, uh, uh, conflicts of interest. Uh, and, uh, some people have read this and have told me that, uh, they've had to stop because their blood pressure was going up too rapidly.

Uh, others, uh, appreciated, uh, a slight, uh, humoristic approach. Uh, although, uh, as they say, uh, in of any great, [00:03:00] uh, humor, uh, there's a kernel of tragedy.

mark_skapinetz: Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's funny to me cuz I actually see it out there when, especially when you put new articles out, I, I always see. One person in particular, it's always like, he just he's quoting me all the time. Ah, the cobras, the cobras are alive, the cobras are out there. just give me, you know, how does, how does this, this book and everything, how does it tie into the appraising aspect and, and what really, really got you to, to get to writing this and start it?

Track 1: Well, it's, uh, is a couple years in the making and, uh, the title I can, I can answer that pretty, pretty quickly. Uh there's uh, there's a effect, um, known among economists that study, uh, government regulation and unintended consequences. And so they it's called the Cobra effect and it's named, uh, uh, for, uh, a, uh, a.[00:04:00]

A strange set of circumstances in, uh, in India, uh, during the time of the RA, when the British, uh, government, uh, ran India. And so there were, uh, there were a lot of, uh, Cobra bites, uh, on townspeople in, uh, the city of deli. So they, some, uh, British bureaucrat got the idea of offering a bounty, uh, to, uh, to anyone that could come in with a, a beheaded Cobra.

Uh, so you, you came in with a body of a Cobra that, and you would get some small, some pits, and then, uh, it seemed to be working and it seemed to be reducing the number of, uh, Cobra, uh, bites, uh, however, uh, some enterprising individuals quickly figured out that, Hey, we can game this system by, uh, raising cobras.

Uh, we can, we can, we can, uh, create Cobra breeding farms, and then we can turn these things in. And get [00:05:00] a certain number of roofies from the government. And, uh, this can go on forever. Uh, well, soon, uh, the government figured out what was going on and so they stopped the program, but when they stopped the program, all of the breeders simply released their breeding stock and all their baby cobras, uh, into the wild.

So it had the effect of actually, uh, increasing the total number of cobras in the deli area. Uh, and it's, uh, this, uh, this Cobra effect is, has been used to, uh, uh, kind of coin, uh, things like the great depression, right. It actually in, or excuse me, excuse me. The, uh, prohibition actually increased the amount of drinking, increased people's interest in drinking.

Uh, and there are many other, there are many other, uh, documented cases of government. Uh, getting involved in something that on its face seems like it will be effective, but they haven't fully [00:06:00]thought it out. Uh, you know, the, the, they call it the dead hand of the bureaucracy. Hasn't, hasn't completely, uh, looked at all the angles and then quickly, uh, some, you know, the forces of free enterprise figure out a way to game it.

And that's kind of, what's been going on in our, uh, in our profession at many, at many levels. So I thought, wow, there's a lot of great, uh, stories out there. Uh, uh, there's a lot of, uh, uh, great, uh, uh, um, uh, almost, I would say epic, uh, transgressions and, uh, uh, waste and abuse. And I thought this is a book that needs to be.

mark_skapinetz: That's that that's awesome. And, and I think a lot of it, um, if I correctly, a lot of it has to geo like what you just said with a lot of the government get involved with things, especially like our profession, you know, the, the appraisal profession it's just changed over [00:07:00] years, actually, since that, you know, since the crash AMC's got and, and, and, you know, a lot of people didn't understand that a, you know, and they still don't understand that aspect of the, of how the AMCs work and how things are are done out there.

But I think you really kind of dove into where, where I was diving into the AMC aspect of things earlier on and writing my blogs about, you know, AMCs, how they get paid, you know, how they, you know, all the different reasons of you, you, you went after you, I wouldn't say you went after, but you did a lot of research into, um, couple other entities out there, like the appraisal foundation, um, the appraisal subcommittee, you know, just, if you wanna just give a little bit more, uh, or elaborate more on that, you know, and how that ties in that that'd be awesome.

Track 1: Okay. So I think for the first 10 years of my appraisal career, I thought the appraisal subcommittee was a congressional subcommittee. Uh, I, they, they made the appraisal subcommittee makes no attempt, uh, to, or a little attempt to, uh, disabuse anyone of that. So it turns [00:08:00] out the, I, I thought this was really fascinating idea is how is it that a copyrighted set of standards of continually changing essentially a code of conduct?

How is it that a privately owned code of conduct could be enforced on citizens as binding. Uh, binding law. So I wanted to try to understand that mechanism. And, uh, so I kind of, uh, I went on a, on a hunt to try to find what, what was that mechanism I re I found out after conducting many interviews that it's in an area called administrative law.

And, uh, there's a mechanism called incorporation by reference. And it's a way in which, uh, in which a, um, an executive branch, uh, agency or, uh, uh, or a, uh, a legislature, uh, in, uh, drafting a, a statute, uh, can incorporate an outside set of standards or outside code of conduct. And I realize [00:09:00]there are thousands of these that have been incorporated.

They can't just regurgitate the whole, uh, the whole, like, for instance, they couldn't just take, uh, uh, the, the most recent version of UAP and just regurgitate that, uh, in a regulation or in a statute. Because that would be, uh, that would be an infringement on the appraisal foundation's copyright. Um, if you want to build a, if you want to build a, a ship, uh, you need to get the private privately held copyrighted standards of the American bureau of shipping and the American bureau of shipping.

Won't tell yet how to build the ship, but they'll tell you, you know, where the center of buoyancy had better be and how thick the hu better be versus the, the draft of the ship and that kind of thing. And then what the coast guard does is they incorporate the American bureau of shipping's regulations on ship building, into their regulations.

Uh, and then they enforce them on people. And I mean, there's, I could go on and on [00:10:00]American society of mechanical engineers who want to build a pressure vessel, uh, the, uh, I E for, uh, electronic engineers, uh, the, uh, American petroleum Institute, they're, they're hundreds, if not thousands of these.

Organizations are essentially publishers. And, uh, this is what, what the appraisal foundation has going, uh, is nothing out of the ordinary. Uh, and once, uh, once a private organization, uh, uh, gets mentioned, it's once it's, uh, once it's privately owned standards get incorporated in a statute, uh, or regulation, it's like they've hit the jackpot.

Uh, they it's like a good housekeeping seal of approval, you know? Uh, they've got it made because then they have, then they immediately have a captive audience. But then I also realized in doing my research that what's going on with the, between the appraisal foundation and the appraisal [00:11:00]subcommittee, appraisal subcommittee is a government, uh, uh, obscure, uh, government agency.

It's part of the, uh, of the, uh, um, the, uh, let's see, I'm, I'm always, I'm always messing up. Uh, the, uh, the initials here, it's, it's part of the, uh, federal financial institution's examination council. So it's the full name is the appraisal subcommittee of the federal financial institution's examination council.

Uh, and there's a, uh, a truism among, uh, inspectors general and auditors in Washington that the longer the name and the more innocuous sounding, the, the closer it has to be an a little agency has to be scrutinized. Uh, so anyway, uh, so on, uh, uh, in the executive branch, is this, is this, uh, appraisal subcommittee.

It is not, it is not a, uh, subcommittee of a larger committee, uh, congressional committee. [00:12:00]No, it's, it's part of, uh, it's it's, uh, overseen by, uh, by a bunch of, of agencies. You've heard of the D I C and, uh, HUD. And, uh, um, the, uh, the credit union, uh, you know, the, the, uh, regulatory agency. And so, anyway, uh, so this, this, uh, appraisal subcommittee acts as a, kind of a patron to the appraisal foundation, the, the, uh, this circular, uh, very abusive, uh, and, and UN, and, uh, in certain cases, unlawful, uh, uh, holy Alliance only, only works if both are involved.

Uh, so at the beginning, you know, I really felt like, okay, the appraisal foundation seems to be the, the white hot center of the abuse. Uh, it seems like the, you know, there [00:13:00] have been now 24 different versions of USEPA P where they're going on the 25th version. Um, if you look at other industries, uh, it's a big deal when they adopt an outside.

Uh, set of, uh, standards like NFPA. Uh, I, I think it's called the national Federation. I may, I may get this wrong, a national fire protection association. I think that's NA FPA. They, the state of Texas adopts a set, uh, a NFPA standard for theorization of natural you're in Texas. You want to oor natural gas.

Uh, you better follow you better be following these because they have been incor. The, I think it's the 2008 version. Don't hold me to that. The 2008 version has been incorporated into Texas law. And if you wanna, you want to oor natural gas. You had better get a copy, uh, of this, uh, uh, of this private standard, um, issued by NAF.

But it's locked in at the very least, you know, that it's the 2008 or [00:14:00] 2006 version, right? It's locked in it's uh, now NAF continues to produce new versions. Um, and it's possible, you know, the state of Minnesota might like the 2012 version or the state of Arkansas might like the 2015 version. So they continue it.

They have just like the appraisal foundation. They have subject matter experts. They have, some of these groups have paid panels, like the appraisal foundation. They pay the members of the appraisal standards board and the appraiser qualifications board. Right. Um, or in some cases they have volunteers volunteer, but, but in some cases they may have volunteers that have dubious, uh, connections to industry.

Uh, you know, it's very suspect. It's almost like, uh, if, if at one point, most of this was done in, in government, you know, the, uh, uh, the Congress would have their own subject matter experts and they would be writing, [00:15:00] uh, uh, statutes drafting statutes that would have certain things that may or may not.

Appeal to, uh, uh, lobbyists and, and industry, uh, always suspect, uh, but it was always done in house and there was no, uh, there was no incentive to just keep cranking out new versions, right. And if anything, uh, in government, there's a disincentive to keep changing things. Uh, but not. So when it's, uh, farmed out to, uh, an industry group, a publisher like the appraisal foundation or the American society of mechanical engineers, but there's a, there's a big dysfunction here with our, in our little world.

And that is the appraisal subcommittee is tasked by statute to, uh, put each version of, uh, of, uh, of USEPA P through, uh, what's called a NPRM notice in comment rule making at the federal level. In fact, the director of the federal [00:16:00] register will not let, uh, any, uh, Uh, any, um, undated, any UN UN uh, any, uh, loosely described, um, set of standards, uh, into a federal regulation, uh, at least on paper, that's the way it works.

Uh, but what's happened is the appraisal subcommittee has essentially abdicated their responsibilities. They're, they're not following the law. And there's also a federal regulation that, that, uh, requires like you could, it, you know, uh, this would have the effect of slowing everything down. If the appraisal subcommittee was, uh, was, was following federal statutes that, uh, that apply to them, uh, then each version of USEPA would have to go through this lengthy series of signoffs.

And also there would be, uh, uh, there would be a, uh, a notice and comment process in which the public and not just appraisers, but all kinds of people who are affected by [00:17:00] appraisers could go on record. Uh, so that, uh, that hasn't been happening and this is something I learned when I was researching my book.

I was getting my own blood pressure was going way up as I was at, at interviewing people. And, uh, uh, you know, I interviewed, uh, Jim park and he was the first to tell me they haven't put any version of the uniform standards through, uh, notice and comment rulemaking. And so, no, essentially they, by doing this, they've created, what's called, uh, an, uh, jargon alert.

They've created, what's called a rolling IBR. And these guys that are really into, uh, administrative law and, uh, they, these, uh, uh, mostly law professors that write about this, uh, they, uh, they call it a rolling IBR. And what they've done essentially is they have made the appraisal foundation, a fourth branch of government.

They've just said, Hey, Hey, appraisal foundation, whatever you produce, uh, [00:18:00] whatever you produce. We will in, uh, the, the, you know, on a federal level will enforce, will pressure the states to adopt always the most recent version. And the, the, I was told by one, uh, by one, uh, kind of expert in this area that the, the only, the only thing that can really be done here is, would be through the courts.

So someone would have to Sue the appraisal subcommittee to essentially, uh, to adhere to, uh, a couple of federal statutes. Um, and, uh, oh, guess what? We don't as appraisers, we don't have standing, um, the only the, okay. It would be the states that would have standing, right. The, the appraisal foundation, uh, forces the use of always the most recent version of the uniform standards onto the states.

Right. And then the states, uh, if they're doing it correctly, [00:19:00] Uh, they, uh, they, um, uh, codify the, you know, whichever version they're going. They, they, they, uh, they wish to enforce on licensees. So licensees could Sue the state, could Sue their state appraiser board. Um, but licensees can't Sue, uh, or, or likely don't have standing, um, to, uh, attempt to compel the appraisal subcommittee to simply, uh, follow the law.

Um, so this isn't very sexy, you know, like there's no, uh, administrative law police, uh, the, I interviewed the director of the federal register and he told me that essentially they can't police everything that gets into the federal register. So there are some CF, there are, uh, some federal regulations, um, that do mention USEPA, but they don't mention a specific version.

So they have that. They've allowed that rolling. IBR. [00:20:00] And, uh, you know, last time I checked, uh, you know, I, I have to follow, uh, federal statutes and state statutes and state regulations, right. Uh, so, uh, it seems, uh, highly ironic that, uh, that these regulatory agencies are essentially they're ignoring it. This happen in California, Texas, Washington state, and at the federal level, uh, and several other states, West Virginia, South Carolina, Tennessee, they've decided, uh, that it's too much trouble and that the, uh, use P changes too frequently.

Uh, and so they decide, Hey, we're gonna, we can most effectively enforce the occupational licensing laws on licensees, but to do that efficiently, we're gonna have to ignore the laws that apply to us. So that's kind of what's happening. Um, in many now, Kentucky, Kansas. Florida, Maine. They're all. I, uh, they're all following the respective state [00:21:00] laws.

So they, so every version of USEPA, like you contact the secretary of state's office in Topeka, right. And within an, and you ask 'em, Hey, when was the, when was the most recent version of USEPA P put through a notice in comment, uh, or a public hearing in, in Kansas, they put it through a public hearing. So, you know, within the day I got an email back.

Okay. We had a hearing, you know, on this date, uh, at this building in, in Topeka, uh here's who showed up here were here were the comments. Um, here are the signoffs from our, uh, department of finance, the governor's office, the small business Amman. But, uh, we appraisers cannot Mount a, uh, you know, we don't have a beachhead.

We can't Mount a frontal assault on the way in which these. standards are constantly changing. Right? We can't do that if our states aren't following the law, there's no, we we're not we're shut out from any public, um, uh, [00:22:00] comment process, uh, because these states are just ignoring their statutory requirements.

So it's

mark_skapinetz: actually,

Track 1: yeah.

mark_skapinetz: actually just, just to interject. I mean, it's actually quite interesting to listen to you because you know, you know, I, I mean, I'm the president of the AGA. I talk with a lot of other people out there and it's interesting because we see a lot of cases coming in through, different states through, for different members.

And it's amazing to me how we have these We have all of this yet. One state interprets one thing, one way another state interprets it another way another state does it. Another way. It could be the same issue in all three states, but one person might not get in trouble for this, but another state they might.

And it's just to me, it's mind boggling. If you have these that, you know, you're, you're constantly interpreting it a different way. And, and I agree with you, it. The whole use P thing. And we see it around all the Facebook groups. We see it everywhere. I mean, every single year they're cha you know, the moment they take out one [00:23:00] oh, that's it gotta, gotta take a new use P class again, you gotta take a whole new class for the update and everything, which is, I mean, I can, I understand it, but at the same time, I don't, cuz I think that should probably be more run over when, when there's major changes or there should be some just kind of update that could take without having to take a seven hour class to learn everything you learned two years earlier.

But you're just learning that they struck out a couple

Track 1: Right. But remember the appraisal foundation, right? That, that's what we're talking about here. The appraisal, the appraisal standards board and the appraiser qualifications board. These are, these are paid panels, uh, that don't exist independently. They're part of the appraisal foundation. You, they don't file a for example, uh, they don't file form nine 90 S with the IRS.

Uh, they don't have 5 0 1 C three status. They're just, they don't exist. They only exist in, uh, in maybe writing, you know, in, in the use P. You know, book, uh, [00:24:00] but they don't exist. They only, okay. They are part the, the only legal, uh, entity is the appraisal foundation. Okay. So, um, you know, that needs to be said right away that they are, uh, they are part of the appraisal foundation.

They don't exist independently. So, uh, the, the, the appraisal foundation is actually doing everything it's incentivized to do. Uh, the appraisal foundation is doing nothing wrong. It's nothing that the ATA wouldn't do or any other group, if you said, okay, um, we're gonna, we're gonna take the A's bylaws or, or call the rotary club or any group we're gonna take their bylaws.

We're gonna, we're going to, um, authorize them in a federal statute, but we're also gonna force we, there is gonna be a check and that check is gonna be this little. Of this little group that, that this sta that the statute forms that was fi RS, the statute, um, that authorizes this little [00:25:00] entity called the appraisal subcommittee of the federal financial institution's examination council.

Um, so that's gonna be the check and we, and in, in the, uh, uh, in the federal statute, we're gonna require the, the, um, the appraisal subcommittee to follow the federal administrative procedure act and, uh, and, uh, submit each version of these outside standards that have been authorized in the statute to a notice in comment rule, making this they haven't done.

So if you were the appraisal foundation, you have struck gold and you are incentivized. They were, uh, they were updating use P every year. Um, now it went to every, then it went to every two years. Uh, now apparently it's gonna be open-ended, but that could actually just be every year. Um, it, it, it, you would, you are incentivized.

You have every financial incentive, uh, [00:26:00] to, uh, to sell a whole new, uh, round of copies every year, every two years. Um, but, but it's not only that you're, you're, you're selling these at monopoly pricing, right? You, you are the only one in town. You own the copyright, the use P the use PA and you're, and, and this group of, uh, readers is coerced to buy it.

Um, and, and then the one check that there is on you is not, is sleep at the wheel. The one check that would re that could slow things down through a, a rule making process is not doing is not fulfilling its uh, statutory obligations. So why wouldn't you, you would keep updating use path as frequently as you thought you could get away with.

Um, and, and also, you know, that certain states, big population states are also doing the same. They, they, they took a queue. They're taking a queue from the appraisal subcommittee and they're not putting, [00:27:00] they're saying, Hey, if the appraisal foundations paid panelists, okay. Something we'll enforce it, but that's not how democracy works.

There are three co-equal branches of government. Every state has a constitution. It lays out the responsibilities. There is no fourth branch. There is no, uh, the, the, the, the, uh, we have not given the right to, uh, these, these committees of persons that are unknown to the state that have, you know, in my state.

No, no, uh, no, no member of the appraisal, uh, uh, of the, uh, appraisal standards board, or the appraiser qualifications board has taken an oath to uphold the. Uh, the duties of any office in my state or my state's constitution anyway, but what's happening is, uh, the, these, uh, a number of state appraiser boards and the appraisal subcommittee are just blindly, uh, advocating, [00:28:00] uh, legislative duties to this 5 0 1 C3 organization.

Uh, you know, uh, so far, all they've done really is just take advantage of the situation. They've, uh, upgrade. They've updated the, uh, standards as often as they can. They sell them at the, whatever they think they can get away with 75 bucks for a PDF. If they thought they could get away with 85, they would do it.

Oh, and by the way, did I mention there's another weird thing in which every time a licensees renew their licenses, or when they get a license for the first time they pay into the laughably mislabel. Uh, national, uh, registry, uh, NA uh, a national registry fee. And then that money goes to the, uh, appraisal subcommittee outside of congressional appropriations.

Right? Remember congresses, we learn this in school, congresses holds the purse [00:29:00] strings. Um, you, you can't have money going into a federal agency that's outside the purview of Congress, so they never have any worries about losing their budget about justifying their budget. Um, with some, uh, organizations, if Congress doesn't like what you're doing, they'll slash your budget, or if you're doing it too well, they'll slash your budget.

That that's.

mark_skapinetz: ano another interesting thing that you, that you brought up because, you know, I just read something the other day. I think it was in, uh, I think it was on the blog or something where. They were talking about all these grants coming out or doing grants for all sorts of things.

And somebody brought up this, uh, this, idea that maybe they should get TAF and ASC, or at least TAF to all of their money and actually start giving out that money for grants as well,

Track 1: Right. Why would, why first? Okay. Why would TAF do that? Why would TAF do it? That's like saying, Hey Harvard, Hey, Harvard, um, university, give [00:30:00] us some money so that we can do something good for education, or it would be like going to the national rifle association say, Hey, you don't mind, we're gonna, we're gonna raid your, uh, your reserve.

They would never do it. It would never ever happen. Uh, the appraisal foundation, first of all, I think a lot of appraisers call it TAF because TAF wants you to think of the appraisal foundation as a three letter agency. It's not, they, they don't want you to know that it, Hey, this is just a 5 0 1 C three, like, uh, you know, the United way or, uh, or the national rifle association or black lives matter or any other, uh, you know, either charitable group or an, uh, a site, a group that, uh, a spouses scientific, you know, discovery and ex and examination, or it's, uh, 5 0 1 C three, you know, most, every charity in the country and many, many, uh, uh, groups that have a public interest or 5 0 1 C [00:31:00] threes.

But it one, I think it would like, I think, uh, uh, uh, Dave Bunton, the, uh, long tenured, uh, chief executive of the, uh, of the appraisal foundation, who is not by the way, an appraiser, um, would like you to think of it as TAF. And they really want you to know that they are congressionally. authorized. I think that's the term they use in their, in their tagline.

If you go to their website, uh, and they, uh, they host Del foreign delegations. They have done work. If you go, they purge their, uh, their annual reports. Now I have them. Uh, and I, and I could provide you a link if you wanna make them, make it available to your readers, but in, in their annual reports prior to the financial crisis.

Uh, and I, thankfully I stockpiled these when I was researching my book, they talk about how they've been, uh, how they, they have received [00:32:00] things of value, such as free travel to go to the Ukraine, to Russia, to China, Thailand, and advise these, their, the governments on real estate valuation. I thought, wow, that would be the first time ever, um, that the appraisal foundation has done anything.

That didn't involve, you know, cash, it involve free travel. I don't think so, but maybe so regardless if they accepted things of value from foreign governments, um, they may have, uh, and if they're also, uh, uh, uh, reinforcing the fact that they're authorized by Congress, uh, there's a, there's a remote possibility that TAF has violated.

What's called the Logan act, uh, uh, uh, a Congressman isn't allowed to go to, to, uh, Qatar and negotiate on behalf of the us government. Right. Um, they're host, they host official delegations, uh, that, uh, at the, [00:33:00] at their headquarters, at the, at the appraisal foundation headquarters. Um, anyway, that, that, I think that might be, uh, worthy of looking into, uh, how does, does, uh, does the appraisal foundation, do they lead.

Uh, foreign nationals to believe that they are somehow representing the, uh, the us government, uh, that would be, and, and also, are there any accounts overseas, have they, they really have not accepted, uh, uh, or negotiated a royalty if there's a, a parallel version of use USEPA that was used, uh, in Russia or the Ukraine or, uh, or Thailand they are, are we supposed to believe that they they're just providing this free of charge or is it also possible that, that the appraisal foundation has used it's clout?

Um, whatever that may be, or it's perceived clout to represent, uh, or, [00:34:00] uh, uh, carry the water for any of the governments that they've been working for in which case that I think would be a violation of? Uh, I'm not sure I remember the name of the act, but it's a, it's a foreign, uh, it's an. Uh, that was, um, enacted in, uh, during world war II or prior to world war II to so that German, uh, uh, people representing the German government had to, had to file with the, uh, us government, uh, as a, as a representative, um, a foreign, uh, I'm drawing a blank.

Uh, but, uh, they would have re they, they would have requirements. They would have requirements.

mark_skapinetz: you explained, you explained it, you know, pretty darn good in, in, in that respect, you know, um, you know, a couple more things here, you know, so we, you know, get moving on with just a

Track 1: Yeah.

mark_skapinetz: that, what do you, what do you feel about, you know, are there, are there any other maybe organizations or anybody else you think out there that should have any kind of role [00:35:00]in, in, you know, setting any of these. Standards going forward. I mean, I know like, you know, you and I talked it's about, you know, we have Fannie Mae, you got Fred Mac who, you know, obviously they dictate how the appraisals are done and, and, and their standards that they require us appraisal appraisers to follow. You know, obviously our states require appraisers to follow certain things as well.

It, it differs per states, you know, should there be other people involved in this or should there be some kind of maybe new way to actually go down the chain of command? Maybe it goes from TAF and it starts at TAF, and then it goes down. It has to go through the checks and balances before it to maybe a public hearing or if it gets out there, uh, for public comment.

And just to make sure that everybody's in agreement or, or so, or something. I mean, what do you think about

Track 1: All right. So, so. My, my goal is way more modest than what you're describing. I just, I think this system could work. It just there there're actors that are, that are repeatedly over years, violating federal [00:36:00] statutes and, and regulations. And also at the state level, as I mentioned, there are a bunch of large population states that have just, they're probably looked to the appraisal, uh, subcommittee and they say, Hey, they're not putting, they're not putting, um, each version of each new version of the uniform standards through a required notice and comment rule making process.

Uh, why should we, why should, uh, and, and not only that, but in California, I have it on good authority that because the USEPA was changing every year and then even every two years, my state can't even do that process. Uh, in a reliably, within a two year period. So, so in other words, what they would do is they'd say, okay, this year we're gonna follow the law.

We're gonna follow the California administrative procedure act, and we're gonna submit the whate call it the, you know, the, the 20, 20, uh, you know, the current, uh, what's the new one gonna be called the 20, 23 version of [00:37:00] use. Is that

mark_skapinetz: who knows

Track 1: right, so let's call it the 20.

mark_skapinetz: they skip a year and go to

Track 1: All right. Let's let's just call the, let's be, let's just call the twenty, twenty three use app, right?

So my California might say, Hey, we've got a new administrator and we're gonna, we're gonna start this right. If they did this, they might also risk a huge, uh, it may be an, an admission, uh, that they have failed to do this in years past. And that might open the floodgates to, uh, you know, all of these, uh, discipline disciplinary, um, uh, procedure, or, uh, I would say, uh, uh, fines.

And, uh, and, and in, in, in, uh, disciplinary actions being reversed, right. If the, if my state were, were to now say, okay, yes. Uh, we acknowledge that, uh, we, uh, we have, you know, we're gonna do it for the first time. We're gonna do this. We're gonna follow state law and we're gonna, uh, we're gonna submit, uh, the new version of USEPA to an ocean, common rulemaking.

It [00:38:00] would be in effect an admission that they haven't done it in past years. And that could open the floodgate. Uh, every licensees in discipline could, uh, would, would have a, probably very good grounds to come back because remember they can't do it. Uh, X post facto, I think, is the term. They can't do it in arrears.

They can't go. Oh, and we're also. Go back and we're gonna approve, uh, every previous one that we haven't, that we haven't, uh, made legally enforceable. If you go to the, uh, office of administrative law, the OAL in California, they even have a, uh, they have a page dedicated to scoff law state agencies in California.

It's the only state I could find where this was going on, dedicated to, uh, helping citizens understand what they call in my state. They call 'em underground regulations. When a, when a, a state agency tries to enforce a regulation on a bluff, without the regulation going through the process to make it enforceable, they call it an underground [00:39:00] regulation and the courage, uh, citizens to turn those administrators in to the state, which I did.

They went nowhere. They, I got a, I got a, uh, I filed a petition in accordance with their, uh, with their rules. And I got a letter back with no explanation other than. We suggest you take this up with the courts. So, uh, and which I would, I, I would do, I'm trying to find a public interest law firm, like, uh, the Institute for justice or the, uh, Pacific legal foundation or, uh, or the, the, uh, uh, the, uh, new Alliance for civil liberties.

I think that's what they're called, um, to take up this cause I would love to be a plaintiff in a public, uh, you know, and it wouldn't be for any money. I would just Sue I would Sue, uh, the, if I had standing the appra the appraisal subcommittee to essentially, uh, follow [00:40:00] federal statute, you know, that apply to them.

I would Sue my state bureau of, of, uh, real estate appraisers to, uh, to comply with this. My state's administrative procedure act. Uh, and, uh, but it would, it would cause complete hav because I think if a, if a, a court ruled that a, a, uh, that an app that a state appraiser, um, a, a regulatory agency were not, uh, or attempt to compel them to follow the law, it would be a, it would be an instant, um, indication that they had failed to do that in the past.

Um, now, now Arkansas is a good example. Some years they do it some years, they don't, they, they get a new, it's funny. It's okay. So that's, and also Washington state, I think in 2009, you can see, they attempted to follow, um, Washington state administrative law and put the two, I think it was the 2008 or the 2009 through a rule making.

And it, it, they didn't do it in time. There were line [00:41:00] out and there was a draft, and then uhoh now there's a new USEPA, so they didn't do it. And then they haven't done it since. Um, but it, some states, oh, West Virginia is a good one. Um,

mark_skapinetz: it was, I just was

Track 1: Yeah.

mark_skapinetz: uh, I, I know that Lori Noble had her thing out there, and I know that that just came out in blogs and stuff and came out with that interview with, with them doing their fancy stuff out there. Um, you know, I wanted to just ask you this

Track 1: Yeah.

mark_skapinetz: where do, or, or since you know, a lot about this, you know, and I'm sure there's gonna be lots of appraisers that are listening and, and be interested and go, wow, I wonder if my state's doing this, you know, where do you suggest that they go to find this information?

Or how do they go out and obtain this information if they've actually, if their state is actually doing this stuff, you

Track 1: Okay. So I'll, I'll give you an example with South Carolina, just for the heck of it. I think I just picked it, you know, I was blindfolded and I just pointed to a state and it was South Carolina. And so I, so what you have to do is you have to see, okay. Um, when you go into the, okay, almost every appraiser, [00:42:00] uh, regulatory body on their website will have both the statute and the regulation that applies to appraisers.

And remember the statute is something that kind of lives on the legislative side, uh, created by the state's legislature and then signed by the governor in law. But the regulation lives on the executive branch side. And that's the regulation. Ideally, uh, doesn't try to recreate the statute or contradict the statute.

Ideally the regulation will just be like, okay, here's the statute that loosely authorizes the, the concept of USEPA P and loosely defines what we expect of appraisers. And then here's the regulation. That's where the rubber meets the road. So they would need to go through the regulation, go through the statute and see how it deals with use P there's.

Some states they say, um, the most current version of use P P shall be enforce or something like that. Uh, then, uh, if [00:43:00] you just simply, uh, you look at the administrative procedure law, you can oftentimes in many states. You can see, uh, either in the APA or in there's a separate administrative set of regulations that said, no, you can't do that.

You can't do that. You can't just, you can't, you have to provide a publication to that's usually how they say it. They say, okay. Uh, it is usually under the heading. Um, some states North Carolina is one that doesn't E even silent on this, but there are many states. They have a regulation that deals with how outside documents are to be incorporated by reference into state regulations or in dis.

So, um, sometimes they'll just, you can, you can find the contradiction, you go into your state, occupational licensing statute and regulation. You see that they've given they've essentially, uh, said anything that the appraisal standards board or anything that the, uh, that the appraisal, um, [00:44:00]foundation calls use P we will enforce.

Okay. Um, there's a, there's another, uh, thing called the, a non delegation doctrine. That's in every state constitution and it essentially lays out the role of each of the three branches of government. And that's the on that's the extent of government government. Can't be another branch that only applies to, you know, 5,000 people in the state called the appraisal foundation.

No, it's one, it's gotta be one of those three or an eight government, right. That's called non delegation. And the non delegation doctrine holds that one government eight, one government, one branch of government cannot, uh, cannot delegate, uh, the its duties to a sister branch of government. So the legislature can't go, Hey, we're really tired of legislating.

We'll just have the, uh, the judicial branch do our work. No, no, no, they can't do that. But similarly, the no [00:45:00] branch of government, and this is at the state level in every state constitution or the federal. Can delegate its duties to an outside organization. You can't say, Hey, we're the executive branch. And it may be that there's certain state agencies are super overworked and underfunded.

So we're gonna have the rotary club, uh, you know, uh, right. Certain laws and then you're, and then we're gonna enforce 'em on you, you know, something or write certain regulations, right? No, can't do that. Well, you can do that through incorporation, by reference, but there's a, it's been subject to abuse and there's a very, uh, specific way you go about making a private set of standards, enforceable either in a state or federally.

And so that has, so what I found out when I was researching is wow, that has not been done, uh, in this case, but it's being done almost everywhere else. And even where it's done correctly, there are some legal scholars [00:46:00] like there's, uh, uh, Peter Straus at Columbia university, for example, Uh, who's been very vocal about the dangers of this, of, of even when it's done correctly of having an outside organization write binding law that affects citizens, uh, you know, of the country.

mark_skapinetz: was,

Track 1: Um,

mark_skapinetz: he was, he was in your book,

Track 1: he's in my book, right. And he's also upset about the idea that you have to pay for the law, uh, to pay, to read the law. Uh, so, uh, there's another guy named Carl Melmed, who's very vocal it that says, you know, that's kind of his Ray Zonea trip. Uh, and, uh, he, uh, he's actually, uh, he's testified before the house judiciary committee, I think on this very subject that the, even when it's done, right, even when it's done legally, which is not with us, but even when it's done correctly, um, it means that you have to pay a, you have to pay a copyright holder even to speak the law.

Right. Like right now, if I read, if I read USEPA, okay. [00:47:00] Um, I would be infringing on the appraisal foundation's copyright. Uh, and that's kind of interesting. Cause when I first started as an appraiser, I noticed like on the, on the, on the, uh, the use, the, the, the versions of USEPA, maybe around 2004, 2005, it said all, all rights reserved, but no copyright symbol.

And I thought, Hmm, that's interesting. And then with future versions, I think, I don't know. When I noticed in 2012, it said all copyright 2012, all writes reserved. Now there's a whole, you know, uh, they read you the riot act, but, but they started incrementally copywriting, USEPA. And why wouldn't they, why wouldn't this is a 5 0 1 C three, uh, that has this gold, like major league baseball.

Right? They have a monopoly. Congress has given them a monopoly. This is not unlike that they've been given this golden franchise. Right. Just like. Uh, if you buy a jam or jelly [00:48:00] sometimes, or chocolates, you see the seal like the Dutch, you know, the, the government of ho the, the Royal Israel, majesty of Holland, uh, names, this company as the official purveyor of chocolates to the court of, you know, princess, whatever Victoria.

And so, uh, this is the same thing. The, uh, the, if, if it were the ATA, if it was their bylaws, their appraiser appraiser standards, if it were the appraisal Institute, right in no time, they would realize, wow, we've got, we can monetize this. And they would be incentivized to, to not only, not only, um, change, keep changing USEPA, but create to own, to write the test questions, sell the test questions, license, the test questions.

Oh, license, the, the teaching materials to teach the teachers. Certify the teachers, um, teach the enforcers, write the test questions for the enforcers they've created, [00:49:00] uh, kind of a, like an economic biosphere, uh, with all of these different products. And then, and then what they do with the proceeds, like any good nonprofit is swollen.

Executive salaries, lots of travel, lots of perks. They had a world class interior design firm come in and re and recently completely redo their, uh, their, their, uh, offices, uh, with a, with an eye toward, um, impressing certain things on visiting delegations. You can read about it because the design firm, the name is escaping me right now.

The design firm is very proud of the work they did for the appraisal foundation. And one of their, one of their tasks was to try to create an atmosphere that would be, uh, create reverential. You know, uh, feelings from foreign delegates or, uh, uh, so this is what they do. So, [00:50:00] and they travel like crazy. Um, they travel, they go on junkets and it's mostly, uh, Dave button, the exec, the president, and a group of selected, uh, I would say favor trustees and coincidentally, almost every one of these trustees.

And you could read about it on Facebook, Twitter, you know, they used to really, uh, stress how international, uh, this organization was and how valued it was internationally. So maybe things have been purged, but you would always find members of the, uh, chief executives compensation committee, which was a, uh, which was a committee within the trustees.

Those individuals were most often traveling with Dave bun. And they do things like, you know, they rub, they, uh, they've gotten, uh, I don't know if this is still the case, but they got very, uh, very, uh, you know, uh, close to Astair darling, [00:51:00] the former, uh, labor party, uh, chancellor of the ex checker in great Britain and stuff like that.

And there's pictures, you know what, like this is what they do. They, they, uh, they visit the great salons of Europe and also Rio and Singapore. And, you know, you can imagine them at the, uh, uh, watching the bull Cho, you know, uh, uh, in St. Petersburg and, you know, the it's, it's a very Trump, essentially what we've done as appraisers is we have enabled, uh, a couple of dozen world citizens, uh, that, you know, change out every now and then, uh, to live, you know, this, uh, lifestyle.

Uh, that are, um, you know, not exactly represent, they don't, they don't claim to represent us. They, why would you, why would you represent us? You know, you're not, uh, so,

mark_skapinetz: we've, we've actually seen that in those in congressional hearings and, and [00:52:00] other things that have been out there where, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing how you hear certain things where everybody's pointing towards the appraisal Institute saying, oh, that's the organization that represents appraisers.

Well, no, they're, they're their own independent organization. It represents their members. Oh, then there's tough. And they're

Track 1: right,

mark_skapinetz: we just, we write all the standards. We're not, we don't really do all it's, it's quite amazing how that dynamic. And then you have a S C add ASC in there, add other organizations, and it's kind of like this just jumbled effect that's going on back and forth.

And, you know, the, the information that you're providing. I mean, I mean, I tell you, I mean, If they can't read your book, they gotta listen to this because I, I mean, this is such good stuff because this is a lot of stuff I didn't even know. Even though reading the book, massive

Track 1: right.

mark_skapinetz: me a long time to get through a book. So hearing this actually, as opposed to just reading it on blogs or reading other people's interpretation stuff, hearing it from you, you know, it's, it's kind of like, it's really kind of got me angry at a, in a, in a way to think, wow, you know, these are, these are the people we were getting into this profession.

We're told that these are the people [00:53:00] that do things and we're supposed to trust them and they're supposed to do this. However, you know, that's not really what they're doing and that's not really what the states are doing. And that's not what these people are saying. They're doing. That's, that's, you know, that's just very infuriating, especially to a profession that's being beaten down every day, every week, we're being beaten down with some other new issue. yet here are these organizations just, you know, oh, you know, just doing whatever. It's, it's kind of funny. I read it in, in one of the blogs I read, uh, article that came out and it said, uh, they were talking about doing, some kind of. New appraisal type of, of analytics. It was like a restoration

Track 1: Mm-hmm

mark_skapinetz: what they're calling it out there.

Track 1: restorative appraisal. Yeah. Value. If yous.

mark_skapinetz: somebody wrote a good comment out there. And it was funny because it became an article. This, this article came out and it was quite funny cuz in, in that it says, oh, well what's next is, uh, USEPA now gonna have to rewrite, uh, another, place for restoration, uh, appraisals.

And how is they? You know? And it just kind of made sense like, wow. I mean, if [00:54:00] they come up with this, well, they're gonna have to incorporate this and that's just gonna sell more copies. That's gonna do more. This that's gonna require more this,

Track 1: Right, right. There's

mark_skapinetz: when's enough

Track 1: okay. So scout there's something called regulatory accumulation. If you look at, at, uh, papers written by the Mercatus Mercatus center at, um, George Mason university, um, there's, there's a concept called regulatory accumulation. It's also been, been called the ratchet effect, um, and sometimes mission creep or scope creep.

And so with this ratchet effect, you know, a ratchet to keep turning it, it never goes back. It just keeps advancing. Right? You, uh, the same thing with this, with this regulatory accumulation. It is, uh, it's almost, it's, uh, it's the nature of regulation to, um, to, uh, continue to grow new layer upon layer.

Sometimes something will be eliminated, but then two things will be added, but the net effect is that it just keeps growing. And that is what's happened, you know, with, uh, just [00:55:00] a couple of recent things. Uh, the, uh, I don't, I don't use these. Um, but the what, what is the, the NC, uh, standards, right? They added, they snuck that in and in no time, you'll start seeing states incorporating that into, in the same way, in many cases, the same way they in incorporate USEPA unlawfully, they'll say the appraiser must comply with the most recent version of antsy antsy the Amer oh, what it stands for.

I, I'm not sure, but it's, it's just like the appraisal foundations, a 5 0 1 C three it's uh, creates standards. It's it's a publisher. Right. So they're more than happy to instantaneously sell, you know, what could it be? Uh, I don't know how many residential appraisers there are that do conforming, you know, loan work, maybe, uh, 30,000 or 50,000 or something.

Um, then now they suddenly have all these captive. Now there's a whole new area that must be poked and prodded and understood and questioned. And there's a whole new [00:56:00] layer. And then now with, with, uh, what's happening with, um, uh, all, you know, these, uh, allegations of appraiser racism, there's gonna, this is one, maybe the best thing that has happened to the appraisal subcommittee in a decade.

Uh, now they've, they have a whole new reason for being, and, uh, you'll also find that in times, uh, where people are acting irration. That rational actors will attempt to tap into that irrational thinking. So you could say, wow, this makes no sense to me. Restorative value. Well, wait a minute. I'm using race to wait.

How do I even know? In some cases, what the RA, wait a minute. I'm U there are other protective classes, right? Wait a minute. I don't know if the, I don't know if the, if in my, in my state it's increased to like a breast breast, you know, they're, they're making sure like that, that I'm not in any way, uh, in any way, uh, discriminated against [00:57:00] anyone for any reason, for us like breastfeeding mom, uh, a veteran veteran status cancer status, they have essentially, they've created such a large list of particular that it's essentially everyone in the state, which is okay, which is what I would do anyway.

I would protect everyone in the state. Yes. I would give everyone in the state equal protection. Yes. So, but, but anyway, so, um, so the, the, uh, Uh, this restorative value thing, uh it's it's like, well, wait a minute, we have to think about race. And in my case in California, maybe we have to also, we have to, you know, definitely have to look at handicap status, religious culture, uh, that kind of, uh, maybe, you know, sexual, sexual orientation.

You have to look at those things, right. And then we have to decide, wow, um, has this home, uh, been discriminated against in the past, we need to compare the home next door because it's not owned by what we perceive [00:58:00] to be a person of a certain ethnicity or a certain gender, uh, identity that it it's, it boggles the mind.

It's very irrational. It's very irrational from the standpoint of a, of a, uh, analyst of any kind of a, but, but, but,

mark_skapinetz: just don't see how it could

Track 1: but, but here, but trust me,

mark_skapinetz: time

Track 1: scout, trust me, rational people. We'll see that this is irrational, but it will not stop them from, uh, from taking advantage of this opportunity. We're already seeing people that appear to be perfectly rational that are now, you know, uh, seem to be, uh, figuring out ways to monetize this, uh, to, uh, their, uh, mouthing Hollies.

Uh, and then you ask them, well, what do you, what do you mean by person of color? Define that Def uh, and you know, in many cases there is no official definition. Um, what do you mean by [00:59:00]RA by that? Like, for instance, that that group, uh, something action that came up with this, with this idea of the restorative, uh, value restorative value, um, it, it calls for appraisers to, um, take comparables from.

Uh, from similar, healthy white neighborhoods, but how, which, which, you know, uh, assuming you were willing to even entertain this for a minute, which white NA you have so many possibilities, uh, to come up with any, any, any price value it's. So, but anyway, one thing I felt is from researching my book, getting off this topic of racial bias is that I is that rational people will flock to irrational ideas and that, uh, it's very maddening.

And, uh, it also, um, I [01:00:00] think it, it, it tells you a lot about the character of people. Um, when you see somebody that one, one week they're talking about regression, analyses and discounted cash flow models, and then the next week, uh, they're talking about, uh, black, you know, Taking comparables from so-called white neighborhoods or perceived white neighborhoods or something.

It's, it's, uh, very disheartening.

mark_skapinetz: No. I, I, I agree. I agree with you on many of those topics, but we are just about out of time here. So we get one more final thought from you. One quick, final thought here, um, or, or, or suggest what, um, are you, what are you hoping, happens with what you're doing here, um, for this profession? How are you hoping this is gonna better the profession in

Track 1: It's modest. It's really modest. I just want, I, I want, I want to, I'd like to, to, to find one jurisdiction that is not where the regulatory entity [01:01:00] is clearly not, uh, not adhering to that respect to its respective, uh, administrative it's really boring. This is really boring, but I want to, I'd like to, I'd like to see.

Uh, I'd like to see maybe a, uh, uh, somebody resigning, somebody being indicted. Um, somebody I'd like a, an example being made maybe, uh, an administrator in a large population state where this has not where, where appraisers are being disciplined, uh, for things like, uh, file retention failures, and, uh, uh, uh, what's the word I'm looking for?

Peccadillos in, within reports. And then these, that same entity is purposely ignoring the statutes in some cases, file retention statutes that apply to it. So, or, or, um, [01:02:00] uh, rule making statutes, um, that apply that. So in other words, there, there are, uh, there are a number of, of, uh, regulatory agencies that are.

They're VI openly violating their respective state laws or in the case of the federal, the, uh, appraisal, the fed federal law, uh, for the purpose of enforcing another corner of federal law or state law, it's, they're expediting you, you know what I'm saying? They're ex they're, they're ignoring part of the law in order to enforce another part of the law.

I would lo I would like to see, uh, maybe, uh, this is, I, I know this is a very weird, uh, you know, like a Nirvana for me, for anyone, but I'd like to be the plaintiff in, uh, in a public interest lawsuit. And I know a guy in Texas who would love to be a plaintiff there and, and just simply, uh, com uh, get a judge to compel, uh, this, that state re that state's regulatory agency or my state's [01:03:00] regulatory agency to simply follow the law.

It's a low bar. It's a really low bar.

mark_skapinetz: Look, I mean, we all have our things. I mean, I had my lawsuit that I went through with coastal VMs and, you know, I just, you know, while I didn't see a lot coming out of it, I had to do what was right. You know, and I had to follow my heart and follow what I was doing to make sure I was doing the right thing.

Even though some people told me I should do it go a separate way. I chose to go all the way through and you know what, while I didn't get this grand, you know, huge award, uh, award settlement to myself, I did get enough of it, even though it drove me through hell at times, it did give me a lot of, uh, of good peace of mind and, and knowing I

Track 1: Right. You got

mark_skapinetz: myself

Track 1: satisfaction. You got some personal satisfaction.

mark_skapinetz: And

Track 1: Yeah.

mark_skapinetz: thought I did the right thing with the, for the profession and just kind of showing what was going on out

Track 1: Right, right.

mark_skapinetz: look, I, um, I know we're, we're just, we're just about outta time here. I, I love this conversation. I definitely wanna continue this with you on another episode. Uh, maybe in a couple weeks we can get back and we can touch base on some other things that, uh, I [01:04:00] didn't get to. but I try to keep these shows around an hour or so. Uh, but look, man, this was a pleasure. I, I really enjoyed this conversation. I learned a lot and um, gonna put your bio out there. The information that you sent me, I'm gonna put it out O on the podcast as well. So anybody needs to get in touch with Jeremy or wants to read more about 'em and his book.

You could find it there. uh, sir, absolute pleasure. And I'd love to have you on

Track 1: All right. Uh, I would just have to caution readers, uh, you know, if you can, um, you know, um, buy my book. Uh don't. Don't don't refuse to read a borrowed version of it. no, no, no. Don't say that, that say that. No. Um,

mark_skapinetz: That's that's

Track 1: yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't EV don't ever read a stolen version of my book. Um, no, but I'm really happy.

I'm really happy if anyone even reads a stolen version. That's fine.

mark_skapinetz: well. Well, I'm sure I'm sure we'll get a lot of people out there, uh, that will, hopefully those sales go up on Amazon and, uh, you know, where people start sharing their copies and uh,

Track 1: [01:05:00] Yeah, that would be fine. That would be fine.

mark_skapinetz: as a pleasure,

Track 1: All right. Okay. Thanks for having me on Skap

mark_skapinetz: I will, I will talk

Track 1: All right. Sounds good.